From omerz@actcom.co.il Fri Aug 22 03:03:56 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: omerz@actcom.co.il X-Apparently-To: hackers-il@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 45876 invoked from network); 22 Aug 2003 10:03:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Aug 2003 10:03:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.actcom.net.il) (192.114.47.13) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Aug 2003 10:03:55 -0000 Received: from actcom.co.il (actcom.co.il [192.114.47.1]) by smtp1.actcom.net.il (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7MA8Zs7002544 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:08:35 +0300 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:02:48 +0300 (EET DST) To: Hackers-IL Subject: xml2lisp machine? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Omer Zak X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=21226034 "XML machine the successor to von Neumann?" http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/32452.html What they are not telling us is that it is easy to transform between the well-known parenthetical representation of LISP code and XML representation. I won't be surprised if this is what they did under the hood. --- Omer My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone. They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which I may be affiliated in any way. WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html From pub@goldshmidt.org Fri Aug 22 08:25:35 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: pub@goldshmidt.org X-Apparently-To: hackers-il@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65257 invoked from network); 22 Aug 2003 15:25:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Aug 2003 15:25:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO zaphod.goldshmidt.org) (212.235.81.147) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Aug 2003 15:25:31 -0000 Received: (from oleg@localhost) by zaphod.goldshmidt.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h7MFQPe16577; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:26:25 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: zaphod.goldshmidt.org: oleg set sender to pub@goldshmidt.org using -f Sender: oleg@goldshmidt.org To: hackers-il@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [hackers-il] xml2lisp machine? References: Organization: Speaking for myself only. Date: 22 Aug 2003 18:26:25 +0300 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 27 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.4 (Common Lisp) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Oleg Goldshmidt Reply-To: hackers-il@yahoogroups.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=131188941 Omer Zak writes: > "XML machine the successor to von Neumann?" > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/32452.html > > What they are not telling us is that it is easy to transform between > the well-known parenthetical representation of LISP code and XML > representation. > > I won't be surprised if this is what they did under the hood. Given that "programs and data are the same" can be found before page 20 in any Lisp or Scheme book (OK, I have not checked, but you get my drift), I would not be surprised if they resurrected a LispMachine without telling their investors (who would panic in an instant). To quote the article: "The practical effect of this is the ability to develop new applications with less code." Sounds as if it is lifted directly from Paul Graham... It seems that the new new thing is doing it in XML... -- Oleg Goldshmidt | pub@NOSPAM.goldshmidt.org From Tzahi_ML@Lycos.Co.Uk Fri Aug 22 09:45:35 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: Tzahi_ML@Lycos.Co.Uk X-Apparently-To: hackers-il@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7885 invoked from network); 22 Aug 2003 16:45:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Aug 2003 16:45:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.lycos.co.uk) (81.218.203.142) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Aug 2003 16:45:29 -0000 Received: from llord (Muaddib [192.168.0.11]) by smtp.lycos.co.uk (Postfix) with SMTP id 9221D25215 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 19:42:12 +0300 (IDT) To: Subject: RE: [hackers-il] xml2lisp machine? Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 19:42:57 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal From: "Tzahi Fadida" Reply-To: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=125032789 yes but you have to understand that this incarnation could be significant. e.g. if some of you know dov dori OPM from our IE faculty IS department, you could in principal very easily create less ambigous and simpler to create code directly from the diagrams. meaning, 100% visual programming. Currently we went with the java code generation, but maybe this could be another alternative. Programming to the masses? only time will tell.... * - * - * Tzahi Fadida MSc Student Information System Engineering Area Faculty of Industrial Engineering & Management Technion - Israel Institute of Technology Technion City, Haifa, Israel 32000 Email TzahiFadida@Lycos.Co.Uk Technion Email: Tzahi@TX.Technion.ac.il * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * WARNING TO SPAMMERS: see at http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html > -----Original Message----- > From: oleg@goldshmidt.org [mailto:oleg@goldshmidt.org]On Behalf Of Oleg Goldshmidt > Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 5:26 PM > To: hackers-il@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [hackers-il] xml2lisp machine? > > > Omer Zak writes: > > > "XML machine the successor to von Neumann?" > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/32452.html > > > > What they are not telling us is that it is easy to transform between > > the well-known parenthetical representation of LISP code and XML > > representation. > > > > I won't be surprised if this is what they did under the hood. > > Given that "programs and data are the same" can be found before page > 20 in any Lisp or Scheme book (OK, I have not checked, but you get my > drift), I would not be surprised if they resurrected a LispMachine > without telling their investors (who would panic in an instant). > > To quote the article: > > "The practical effect of this is the ability to develop new > applications with less code." > > Sounds as if it is lifted directly from Paul Graham... > > It seems that the new new thing is doing it in XML... > > -- > Oleg Goldshmidt | pub@NOSPAM.goldshmidt.org > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > From tzafrir@technion.ac.il Sun Aug 24 06:17:05 2003 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 89401 invoked by uid 7800); 24 Aug 2003 13:17:04 -0000 X-Sender: tzafrir@technion.ac.il X-Apparently-To: hackers-il@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 66386 invoked from network); 22 Aug 2003 19:50:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Aug 2003 19:50:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxout4.netvision.net.il) (194.90.9.27) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Aug 2003 19:50:49 -0000 Received: from meron.dira.dyndns.org ([212.235.0.121]) by mxout4.netvision.net.il (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.14 (built Mar 18 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HK100HOPDR7L6@mxout4.netvision.net.il> for hackers-il@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:49:55 +0300 (IDT) Received: from yeditop.dira.dyndns.org (yeditop.dira.dyndns.org [192.168.0.2]) by meron.dira.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5A74384B for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:49:53 +0300 (IDT) Received: by yeditop.dira.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id CB15B20060; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:49:51 +0300 (IDT) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:49:51 +0300 Subject: Re: [hackers-il] xml2lisp machine? In-reply-to: To: hackers-il@yahoogroups.com Message-id: <20030822194951.GO28385@dira.dyndns.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i References: From: Tzafrir Cohen X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=20175453 X-eGroups-Approved-By: shenkaisr via email; 24 Aug 2003 13:17:04 -0000 On Fri, Aug 22, 2003 at 01:02:48PM +0300, Omer Zak wrote: > "XML machine the successor to von Neumann?" > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/32452.html > > What they are not telling us is that it is easy to transform between > the well-known parenthetical representation of LISP code and XML > representation. Natually: It saves you the bother to write a parser that will build a source tree from the source file. But then again, I figure nobody (besides Real Programmers) will actually write such code manyally, as it is probably a messy syntax. > > I won't be surprised if this is what they did under the hood. s/XML/text/ while reading that article. And you'll sudenly realize that this is nothing new, just a change of media. And besides: there are good reasons for seperating code from data. Seems likeyet another scripting language... -- Tzafrir Cohen +---------------------------+ http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/ |vim is a mutt's best friend| mailto:tzafrir@technion.ac.il +---------------------------+ From tzafrir@technion.ac.il Tue Aug 26 00:07:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 56905 invoked by uid 7800); 26 Aug 2003 07:07:07 -0000 X-Sender: tzafrir@technion.ac.il X-Apparently-To: hackers-il@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 74959 invoked from network); 25 Aug 2003 20:33:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Aug 2003 20:33:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxout4.netvision.net.il) (194.90.9.27) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Aug 2003 20:33:58 -0000 Received: from meron.dira.dyndns.org ([212.235.0.121]) by mxout4.netvision.net.il (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.14 (built Mar 18 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HK60016EZGY5H@mxout4.netvision.net.il> for hackers-il@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:26:58 +0300 (IDT) Received: from yeditop.dira.dyndns.org (yeditop.dira.dyndns.org [192.168.0.2]) by meron.dira.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A3AA3844 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:26:55 +0300 (IDT) Received: by yeditop.dira.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B84162007F; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:26:53 +0300 (IDT) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:26:53 +0300 Subject: Re: [hackers-il] xml2lisp machine? In-reply-to: To: hackers-il@yahoogroups.com Message-id: <20030825202652.GX28385@dira.dyndns.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i References: From: Tzafrir Cohen X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=20175453 X-eGroups-Approved-By: shenkaisr via email; 26 Aug 2003 07:07:07 -0000 On Fri, Aug 22, 2003 at 07:42:57PM +0200, Tzahi Fadida wrote: > yes but you have to understand that this incarnation could be > significant. e.g. if some of you know dov dori OPM from our IE > faculty IS department, you could in principal very easily create > less ambigous and simpler to create code directly from the diagrams. > meaning, 100% visual programming. > > Currently we went with the java code generation, but maybe this could > be another alternative. > Programming to the masses? > only time will tell.... What do we have so far? We have a company that sell a relatively cheap development environment. It has an "xml" buzzowrd written on it. Omer then added a speculation on how it is implemented, and that it could be very effective. You added a speculation that it would fit for a certain interesting project. A couple of reminders: XML is intended to help build a united toolchain an thus allow much standartization and code reuse. However we have a different task here: parse a program code and make good use of it, efficiently. I am not well aware of the current technologies, but I figure that the xml toolchain does not have much to add here. And recall the existing frameworks raleted to Java and to .Net that involve portable byte-code. many programing languages can compile their own code on-the-fly. List was probably the first. And really-good "scripting" language (practically all of them are half-compiled) has such capability. Those languages tend to have a small part written in C (or whatever) and most other things implemented using the languages's code. Anyway, this field is not intersting for me, as this silly company is getting a patent on it. Why would I bother looking into a paten-encumbered field? -- Tzafrir Cohen +---------------------------+ http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/ |vim is a mutt's best friend| mailto:tzafrir@technion.ac.il +---------------------------+